24 May 2011

 

 

E&OE……………………….……………………………………………………………………………

 

Ashleigh Gillon: Joining me this afternoon on out panel of politicians, the Nationals’ Senator Fiona Nash and Labor MP Craig Thompson. Good afternoon to both of you. The worry though now is whether progress has been made. The CFF was saying this morning that now the fighting season is upon our troops in Afghanistan, the Taliban will be motivated now to try and claw back the ground that they lost over winter, Stephen Smith said today Fiona that we need to brace ourselves for even more casualties in the coming weeks and months

 

Fiona Nash: there’s no doubt that it is a difficult situation – its just been an absolute tragic loss not just for the sergeant’s family but for the country, but I think this is one issue where we are in lock step with the government – this is the fight we need to be in for all the right reasons, it is going to be a difficult situation, but we are going to be there for the right reasons.

 

Ashleigh Gillon: It was interesting to not as well today that when the Chief of the Defence Force was asked about the impact of Osama bin Laden’s death, whether this could have been some sort of retaliation. Very quick to play that down. He said the impact he’s seen is mainly on the ground of Pakistan and his death doesn’t increase the risk for our soldiers on the ground in Afghanistan. I guess it raises the question though, what was the point then?

 

Craig Thompson: Look, I mean the point, where we are together with the opposition and the government is that this is a fight, a war on terror, it is a difficult fight we are going to have casualties with and as the Defence Minister pointed out today, we’ve got to expect more – but it’s one that no only is the parliament united about, but I think the Australian public are united about the purpose we have here as well too and the death yesterday it is tragic and it is right that we continually question, assess, our role there but the answer all the time is it is the right decision that we took, the right decision that we stay there to stay and make sure the progress we made and the progress we continue to make.

 

Ashleigh Gillon: The prime minister also made that point today that Osama bin Laden is just one person and the fight against terrorism must continue. She also pointed out that 5 soldiers were also wounded over the last 24 hours too in this one incident that killed the Australian commander and 3 in an earlier incident, and we all are hoping that they recover fully. Lets move on to domestic politics today, this morning the climate change commissioner has been holding an event here at parliament house, Fiona this week it’s been made abundantly clear, again, that not everyone within the coalition believes the science behind climate change, that its real, mankind is contributing. Can you understand why the public might be confused as to the coalition’s position when you’ve got on one side the leadership saying ‘yes we believe it is real and trying to bring in this direct action plan to combat it’ and on the other hand you’ve got senior figures like Barnaby Joyce, like Nick Minchin for example saying ‘the science isn’t clear’.

 

Fiona Nash: I think it’s two separate issues. There has always been talk about the science, there has often been different views given about the science, but we are absolutely clear is regardless of that discussion the opposition has been saying that this government has got it completely wrong, trying to implement a carbon tax to deal with this issue. Now it’s abundantly clear that while the major emitters are not doing what we’re doing with a carbon tax its going to slug the Australian people; fuel, electricity, transport costs are all going to go up, a whole range of others – and its not going to make the slightest bit of difference to the climate. Now the coalition is absolutely wedded on that issue. There is no doubt about that and I think by-and-large Australian people recognise the folly of bringing in a tax that’s going to make no difference to the climate.

 

Ashleigh Gillon: I will come back to this and get your response to that in a minute, I just wanted to sow you some of Malcolm Turnbull and Greg Hunt today, they made a point today in turning up to this climate commission and were singing from the same hymn book after we’ve seen Malcolm Turnbull’s views on this. Today they were both saying ‘yes the coalition is supporting the government’s target to cut emissions by 5%’. Have a listen.

 

            [Video excerpt with Malcolm Turnbull and Greg Hunt]

 

Ashleigh Gillon: We see there there is no quibbling on the science behind this. The science may be on your side but that doesn’t change the fact that Australian’s hate the idea of a carbon tax.

 

Craig Thompson: There is quibbling about the science. We know the liberal party is working, the coalition walks both sides of the fence on this, they send people out like Nick Minchin and Barnaby Joyce to say that we don’t believe it, then they send out the moderate view to say “oh we do, were the same as the labor party on this’ this is a coalition that is deeply divided about climate change and while ever they are deeply divided on climate change they’re not going to be able to come up with the solutions. In relation to what Fiona’s raised, she should have been there today, I know she had estimates, found it very interesting because to myths were exploded, one, that we are not leading the world in relation to what we’re trying to do with climate change, in fact the report and the people speaking today said at best we are mid-pack in terms of countries doing this and the second myth is that Australia in some way makes no difference if we introduce them, the analysis was put about us being a part of the G20, we’re part of the 20 biggest polluters in the world, we need to do our bit. We need to be making sure that we’re part of a global response and this myth that’s continually perpetuated that we’re acting alone, were ahead of the pack, is simply untrue, while ever the coalition continue to pedal this out they are not part of the solution.

 

Ashleigh Gillon: Fiona, would you argue with the scientists on that?

 

Fiona Nash: I would say that this idea that we are pedalling something is ridiculous. The government’s loving going ‘we’re out there and we’re telling these falsehoods and we’re misleading the Australian people’. When it comes back to the tin-tacs of all of this there are very very few countries the major emitters proposing to do what we’re doing. And you cannot argue with the fact that we only emit 1.4% of the entire world’s emissions. So no matter what we do, no matter what the commission, hand picked by the government, there’s no surprises there’s a lock step with what the commission and what the government wants to say.

 

Craig Thompson: [inaudible] it’s what the science is saying [inaudible] we’re on the side of right here!

 

Fiona Nash: Didn’t your mother tell you just be nice. Now the point is that there is science on both sides. The overarching thing with all of this is we need a better environment – a cleaner, healthier environment for the future. Everybody agrees on that. So the way to do that is through incentives to clean up the environment and that’s the way to do not, not a carbon tax that’s going to put a huge cost on the Australian people, a huge increase in electricity costs, $300 a year that people can ill-afford because the Labor party believes we have to be seen leading the way, its rubbish.

 

Craig Thompson: What about the costs of your proposal, Malcolm Turnbull made it absolutely clear as to the costs that the taxpayer is going to have to pay in terms of the proposals you’ve got [inaudible]

 

Fiona Nash: They’re all identified savings in the budget

 

Craig Thompson: [inaudible]…going around the country doing stunts with Weetbix rather than arguing about the effects of climate change.

 

Ashleigh Gillon: [inaudible] shutdown some of the arguments Tony Abbott’s making, at the very beginning…

 

Craig Thompson: he’s mouthing slogans

 

Ashleigh Gillon: but at the beginning you hadn’t outlined exactly what you’re going to do exactly what the compensation packages will be, exactly what the carbon price would be.

 

Craig Thompson: We’ve been very open about the process we’re going through in terms of what is

 

Ashleigh Gillon: There is a vacuum there

 

Craig Thompson: …it’s a difficult parliament we’re dealing with. We’re in minority government and we need to take the parliament and the Australian people with us. So there are two stages to this and it’s not very long now, in the middle of this year we will be releasing the details in relation to this, I mean the types of things we are hearing from the opposition mean people are confused about this, and this is deliberate. Mr Abbott is out there implying that everyone is going to be taxed… [inaudible]

 

Ashleigh Gillon: [inaudible]… I think we’re all looking forward to those details coming out so we can actually sit down and scrutinise them and have real debates about concrete facts to do with the carbon tax. Do stay with us after the break we are going to look at the issue of asylum seekers and do we really need plain packaging for cigarettes in this country? Stay with us.

 

            [Ad break]

 

Ashleigh Gillon: Welcome back. Today Health Minister Nicola Roxon held a news conference to criticise the opposition’s take on plain packaging for cigarettes. She leapt on reports today in the Sydney Morning Herald that there are at least a couple of liberals that declared they may want to cross the floor if this does get to a vote in parliament and the liberals decide to vote against it. Here was Nicola Roxon a little earlier today

 

            [Excerpt from Nicola Roxon]

 

Ashleigh Gillon: The SMH reports this morning that Mr Somlyay and Dr Mal Washer would be two liberals that would support plain packaging and name Ken Wyatt but he has said today that he will go along party lines on this one. The liberal’s official position on this is that it wants to see the legislation first and has been very critical of the idea; here was Peter Dutton on AM agenda tis morning.

            [Excerpt from Peter Dutton]

 

Ashleigh Gillon: Fiona, the liberals might be waiting for the legislation but the Nationals already saying ‘were going to vote against it, we don’t like it, we think it’s not going to work, why do you disagree with so many health professionals who think it’s a great move?

 

Fiona Nash: I don’t think that’s correct what you just said. We’ve certainly got some concerns about it and we’ll be working those when we see the detail of the legislation.

 

Ashleigh Gillon: [inaudible] …was the national’s senator on the show last week and he was saying exactly that, the nationals there’s no way you will vote for this.

 

Fiona Nash: John’s known for occasionally being blunt but we do in the nationals have some concerns, we haven’t got a position yet were going to wait and see the legislation and see exactly how that is going to work, we do have concerns around the nanny state aspect of this if you like. There is a number of people who have problems with obesity, people with problems with alcohol is the government going to move to plain package chocolate biscuits and wine? So there are some real concerns here on that level and the fact that the minister does seem pretty gung-ho about the question needs to be asked; if she’s so concerned why is she not just going to ban it, it is a legal product? There are a number of things we will be looking at; we have some concerns, but we will wait to see the legislation to see exactly how it looks.

 

Ashleigh Gillon: Craig, a lot of health professionals are backing this, obviously anti-smoking lobby groups are saying it’s a great idea, but is there any proof that it’s going to work, that it will make a difference?

 

Craig Thompson: These sorts of measures have been recommended by the experts as ways of reducing the number of people who are hooked on smoking, that has to be a good thing. I mean, what we’re seeing from the other side of politics is typical of every issue they’ve got, it’s a policy vacuum – we’ll sit and wait. You heard the shadow minister say “we’ll negotiate internally.” I mean look, there is medical evidence that’s there, they in principle could be out there saying ‘these could be good measures that we need to look at, we need to look at the detail of it, but we broadly support what’s being put… [inaudible]

 

Ashleigh Gillon: [inaudible]… because I haven’t seen any, I know the coalition is asking for some, have any other countries done this before? Is it proved to work anywhere else?

 

Craig Thompson: Well look, Australia is one of the countries that leads the world in terms of the reduction in people smoking and we’ve seen the benefits in terms of the health of out nation as well that’s flowed from this. The reductions in cancers and the like, this isn’t something we should be arguing about. The problem for the coalition is they are horribly compromised. They receive donations from the tobacco companies they are horribly compromised in relation to this issue. They need to stop their donations, cut off the money from the tobacco companies, come clean with the Australian people. Come on board with what are sensible and proper health measures that are going to improve health of all Australians not just those who are addicted to smoking.

 

Ashleigh Gillon: It’s not a good look is it for the coalition seen to be siding with big tobacco?

 

Fiona Nash: Labor love trotting this out whenever they get in a jam, whenever they’re asked about whether there is evidence to back up plain paper packaging of tobacco, they simply cant bring any out, Craig can’t give us any today. We’re waiting for the evidence to see what the benefit will be in moving toward plain packaging. They love using distracting techniques and saying ‘well the opposition is doing this, and look what they’re taking from these companies’, but it’s complete rubbish, just a distraction technique.

 

Ashleigh Gillon: Would you be happier if it was a trial perhaps and after six months or a year see how it’s going. Would that appease you?

 

Fiona Nash: I think the thing is that we need to see the detail before we can make, and it’s not just a twee throw-away line, you’d be stupid to agree to something you didn’t know the detail of, it’s just a sensible approach to things. Once we’ve got the detail we’ll have a look.

 

Ashleigh Gillon: [inaudible]… from big tobacco, are you comfortable with that?

 

Fiona Nash: it’s a legal company, there is a whole range of people that donate to political parties, and I think the issue here though is that the government has again put something forward on the run without being able to back it up through decent, substantive evidence. When we see that, we’ll certainly have a look at it and we’ll have a look at it in the context of the legislation when we actually see it.

 

Craig Thompson: What we’re seeing is the coalition adopt its natural position in relation to any proposition, that is ‘no, we oppose’, with the leader of the opposition that is their only position, it doesn’t matter if its about health issues, doesn’t matter if its about climate change, doesn’t matter if it’s about jobs or the economy, their position is ‘no, no, no’. They need to look at what’s in the best interest of Australian’s, they need to stop this continual negative approach that they take to any issue and get on board with what are good projects, like this one, for the health of Australian’s.

 

Ashleigh Gillon: Well, another issue of course that is deeply divisive is the asylum seeker border protection issue. Yesterday in question time we saw the opposition rolling out question after question about the deal with Malaysia. The coalition is also calling for an inquiry into detention centres in this country. What would you learn from an inquiry that you couldn’t learn through senate estimates that are on this week as we know?

 

Fiona Nash: Senate estimates is a great opportunity to drill into some of the issues but it is a very limited time constraint through doing that, but I think having the inquiry would actually give us a longer period of time, more ability to actually go into the detail of the operations of what’s happening in these centres. I think we all know that there are serious problems, we’ve seen a whole lot of incidents come out, I think its about three a day on average now, so I thin its quite right to have an inquiry, now whether all sides will agree, we’ll see, but we hope that the cross-benchers will agree and the greens will agree and if the government’s very happy with how the policy’s working, they shouldn’t be in the slightest bit worried about having an inquiry so I think its quite appropriate for the Australian people, it’s their taxpayer dollars.

 

Ashleigh Gillon: What is there to hide? There have been allot of incidents, it is a matter of huge concern to many Australians, why not have an inquiry and get to the bottom of some of the questions that the coalition’s been putting forward?

 

Craig Thompson:  We are more than transparent about the way in which our detention centres work and the government policy in dealing with people arriving illegally in this country, all of this is very open book. What is being proposed by the coalition is a political stunt. They want to just talk about their three word slogan in relation to the issues we have with border control, whereas the government is about trying to make sure we bring into place a regional solution and that is the only way in which we can address these issues which are very difficult issues not just for this country but for globe themselves in terms of the movement of refugees throughout the world by coming up with a regional solution, that’s what the Malaysian proposition is all about.

 

Ashleigh Gillon: I know that the government has been working with the High Commissioner for Refugees on this Malaysia deal but today the UN’s High Commissioner for Human Rights has raised a lot of questions. She’s met with Chris Bowen this morning, earlier today it was reported that she thought the Malaysian deal was illegal, she thought that sending people back to Malaysia could violate refugee law; she’s worried about their fate there. Chris Bowen’s office is saying that after meeting with the minister this morning, they’re working through some of those issues with her, but still there are a lot of human rights advocates saying ‘this is not fair, the people being sent back to Malaysia are basically going to be left to fend for themselves’. Does that worry you?

 

Craig Thompson: Well, the UN have also said that Australia is meeting and will meet what they’ve seen from us in terms of the proposed agreement our obligations under the Refugee convention, we will work with the UN in relation to this. The UN are actually particularly excited as this is the first time they have been able to engage with Malaysia in terms of the detention of people there, so its actually been a major breakthrough that wouldn’t have happened without Minister Bowen’s being there in Malaysia getting this deal up and going. It’s actually good news, not just for Australia and the region, but also for those refugees, those asylum seekers who re in Malaysian camps.

 

Ashleigh Gillon: [inaudible]… putting aside the politics, having more regional cooperation is a good thing isn’t it?

 

Fiona Nash: Well interesting Craig talks about a regional solution, it became very clear in estimates yesterday that there is no regional solution this has all fallen over with the discussions with the PNG and Manus island, its only going to be with Australia, so it looks very similar to what John Howard had in place, its just that they haven’t managed to get any kind of final deal so the whole issue of the regional solution really has gone out the window. The key to all of this is the fact that the government is still scrabbling around trying to find some sort of solution to the asylum seeker issue and we go from one country to the other, there is the East Timor solution fell over, we’re now looking at Malaysia – apparently its not 800 refugees, it’s up to 800 it may be only a small amount of that, again, through estimates yesterday. The whole thing is really a mess and if the Prime Minister picked up the phone to Nauru, which she just refuses to do, it may well be on the way to being solved.

 

Ashleigh Gillon: It does sound like another example of this government making another announcement and then scrabbling to find the details, and announcing the details months later. This is still something that isn’t locked down yet.

 

Craig Thompson: Not at all. We’re working through a process with the Malaysian government, we’ve already had the Thai government say they’re going to have a look at this as well to, the UN have said this is a model that may be able to resolve some of those regional issues and one that their looking at and encouraging other nations to be part of. The big difference between what we’re proposing and announced and what the former Howard government did, is that ours is about breaking the people smuggling model, their business model. We’re making sure that if we send them back, they go back to the port of origin so that they go back to where they first catch those boats. So the message that  people smugglers are able to pedal out there about selling spots on shops will be broken, ant that is a big difference, we know that in relation to Nauru, they all ended up, pretty much, in Australia or New Zealand anyway. This actually stops the issue. The other point that was raised at estimates was about it being up to 800, oh gee, that’s good news, that means if were not sending back 800, that people smugglers aren’t coming.

 

Ashleigh Gillon: I’m sure that we will hear about this in question time, which is coming up in a few minutes shortly, just before we go I want to raise an issue which the infrastructure minister, Anthony Albanese, has raised today. He has another headline in the Daily Telegraph today targeting Minister Albanese. Yesterday we saw another couple of articles as well criticising his handling of the infrastructure portfolio. Yesterday’s articles suggested that Barry O’Farrell has been told to call Julia Gillard directly on any infrastructure matters, he should bypass Anthony Albanese. Albanese today has said that all of this in the Telegraph today and yesterday is completely wrong and its just incorrect, it’s a new editor at the Daily Telegraph is taking an anti-government stance, this of course comes after last week Bob Brown, the greens leader, criticised The Australian as being hate media, he’s worried about the Murdoch media in this country. Are politicians being too precious Craig, or is this a real problem that we’re seeing at the moment?

 

Craig Thompson: As you can understand, Anthony when he reads front page after front page which is just wrong, being a little bit annoyed about it. I think anyone would be, I mean we unfortunately have the situation with the Daily Telegraph that it’s more for entertainment purposes that people read it now, it certainly can’t be news. It can’t be relied on in terms of facts and the story yesterday, the story today, just don’t stack up in terms of what the truth is. So look, he’s entitled to be a little bit angry, he’s expressed that this morning and that’s perfectly understandable.

 

Ashleigh Gillon: What do you think Fiona?

 

Fiona Nash: I think we all hope the media get their reporting facts right and I think by and large they mostly do. I think sometimes parliamentarians can be a little thin skinned.

 

Ashleigh Gillon: Do you think that Bob Brown, in particular, in his attacks, is it just that the greens are under a lot more scrutiny because of their position in the parliament or do you think there has been some sort of anti-greens campaign running?

 

Fiona Nash: I would see it as there has been a lot more scrutiny now on the greens, and that’s not surprising. They’re about to have the balance of power in the senate so that new scrutiny is not surprising at all. The way Bob Brown is reacting to it is a little unusual, he obviously doesn’t like the sort of pressure he is under now with the detailed questioning that’s coming to him, as we saw with Chris Uhlmann the other night

 

Ashleigh Gillon: Is that it? The greens can’t handle the scrutiny?

 

Craig Thompson: I don’t think any politician minds scrutiny, it’s making sure the scrutiny is factual and right, and I think the Minister’s reaction today was an understandable one when you see things that are just wrong in terms of what’s there, so I don’t think that’s being thin skinned, making sure the media reports things accurately. I think it’s important for everyone and the Minister’s entitled to make those comments.

 

Ashleigh Gillon: Fiona Nash and Craig Thompson, we are out of time, thank you for joining us this afternoon on lunchtime agenda.

 

[ends]